Leadership in the AI Age, With Executive Coach Eddie Turner
Eddie Turner joins TechTalk SMB host Charlie Guarino to discuss how leaders can navigate this era of disruption
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This transcript has been edited for clarity:
Charlie Guarino: Hi everybody, this is Charlie Guarino. Welcome to another edition of Tech Talk SMB. Today I am very, very happy to have with me a very dear and old friend, Mr. Eddie Turner. Eddie, it is so delightful to see you here today. Thanks so much for joining me.
Eddie Turner: Charlie, it is a pleasure to be here with you on TechTalk SMB, and you are right. We are dear friends, and I am old.
Guarino: Well, maybe that didn’t come out quite the way I intended to, but you look terrific. So thank you for joining me here today, Eddie.
Turner: My pleasure, sir.
Guarino: Eddie, I’m reading your LinkedIn profile right now and the first thing that it says is Eddie Turner transforming organizations through strategic leadership development. What does that mean exactly? That’s a lot of words and it sounds very impactful, but how do you define that in if you had to be a little more verbose on that?
Turner: Sure. My approach to leadership development, because it’s a broad term and one that many people in our profession use, and I just believe it’s imperative to have a strategy, and in my case, a branded strategy. And that is the strategy that I take to my clients. And when properly implemented and followed, it is transformative on organizations. They don’t pay consultants in the leadership development space to come in and give advice per se. They want people that are going to build capacity in their leaders so that they can grow and develop themselves. And now there’s times that need aid, they need assistance. And that’s where coaching, the coaching component, comes in that I do. But for the biggest part, I firmly believe my job is not to have a client for life and that I’ve coached a person for 10 years, but in that I’ve built competency in them as an individual competency in teams inside of an organization to where I essentially coach myself out of a job.
Guarino: That sounds like a great mantra right there. I know if people do want to get in touch with you, they can just visit your site, askeddieturner.com, and I encourage people to go there. It’s a wealth of information there and you can certainly chat with Eddie and come up with a good strategy for your team. And let’s segue into that because I want to talk today, I want to focus on leadership through disruption. And what I mean by that is historically speaking in the IT space, there has always been disruption. It’s just a normal part of our business. We talk about mobile technology, cloud computing, e-commerce, COVID 19, but the one that comes to my mind right now most presently is AI. And that to me is disruption on a very large level. And I’m not entirely sure that leaders today know how to properly manage this disruption in their enterprises. And that’s why I think our conversation should be very helpful to anybody who’s in that space. Before we even go into any detail, what’s your view on disruption in general, business disruption? What have you seen and how have managers or leaders even typically responded to disruption? Some can fail, some can succeed?
Turner: We’ve seen a lot of disruption here at the turn of the century. Think back, I was having a conversation with someone recently, and I don’t recall who it was, but I was kind of making a joke about being an older guy who had to do things the old fashioned way. And I was talking about the fact that hey, there was not always an Uber, for example. And when I think of disruption, this unsettling, this turning upside down of an industry, Uber’s one example that comes to mind. Most of the time we were used to having to try to get a taxi cab, and it was sometimes when you would get in and they wonder, did you really want to sit down? And when you were there, they didn’t always necessarily smell fresh, right? But now all of a sudden this concept that people pick you up on their own cars, they are nice, they’re neat and clean, and the ease of securing one, and the first, the response from leaders in that industry and in government were to push out this new company, fight it.
Well, no, the proper response is raise your game. You need to be able to meet the level of competition and not try to squelch competition. And as a result, you see a lot nicer taxi cabs around and they get spawned other types of concepts. You think about Airbnb, they did something very similar with upending the hospitality industry. Now I’ll just leave it at those two, but essentially what they did to industries, they created a new vertical instead of temp workers that you would bring in, you now have even corporations using the gig economy model that those organizations produced. And so instead of hiring consultants for a lengthy period of time, and sometimes you’re seen them bring in essentially gig workers, and there’s some articles that are saying that that feature is really here to stay, especially once the legislation passed that said that ironed out what the employer or employee relationship should be and what those rights are.
Guarino: You talked about Uber, you mentioned Airbnb, and by and large, they’re just software companies. They don’t own hotels, they don’t own any cars, but that’s their paradigm and it’s very interesting. But those are very successful examples, as you said. They have checked many boxes, but how do you distinguish, or how does a leader distinguish, what the next big thing is? What might be some of the metrics to distinguish between something that’s just a temporary situation versus something that’s true disruption and it’s going to be around for a while?
Turner: Yes, you said it well. Those are organizations that are software companies. They don’t own one single vehicle.
Guarino: It’s amazing.
Turner: Right? Much like in the case of McDonald’s, for a long time it was said it’s just a real estate company that sells burgers. And we’re also seeing that in the hotel industry. The big labels that we know, really, they own less than 1% of the buildings that we might take lodging in. They license out their name and that’s what we see; other private firms own it. So, when it comes to disruption, one of the things I’ve tried to work with my clients to understand is that we need to be seeing down the field, and I think about football. Seeing not only down the field but the entire field. So do we have the ability to see with distance and width? If we are not constantly looking, then we run the risk of being disrupted. We run the risk of being disintermediated because our competition will—I stressed the need of not getting complacent. We must constantly maintain a sense of urgency. I saw a meme, and it said the most dangerous phrase and the English language is, “Because that’s the way we’ve always done it.”
When we get the attitude that “If it’s not broke, don’t fix it. This is the way we’ve always done it. Why are we making these changes?” That’s a problem because you need someone who comes in with fresh eyes, takes a different viewpoint of how your organization is operating. And a lot of times organizations want to penalize those types of people. That person in the meeting that’s always saying, “Hey, wait a minute, how about,” and someone always goes, “Oh, there loud mouth Larry goes again.” Or “Nervous Nancy always derailing us.” But you need people like that who help you think about things differently, because your competition certainly is. I’ve seen so many cases where organizations have run out those people, either through not properly treating them or promoting them inside the organization and they’ve gone across the street and done it for the competitor or they’ve started their own organization.
And you listen to them and they say, “I did what they did not let me do.” So one of the solutions that companies have found that will help them maintain that type of thinking is to instead of penalize it, promote it. Work with those types of individuals, and rather than have them become entrepreneurs, have an in-trepreneur spirit inside the organization; give those individuals money, time to do that. Google did that for a long time. Google said, “Hey, take 20% of your work week and do nothing related to your job. Just explore, be creative.” And so some of the greatest products were used, like Gmail, came out of that 20%. It was not so much role. So leaders need to lead and sometimes leading means you get out of the way.
Guarino: You talked about a couple of words that jumped out at me. You mentioned don’t have complacency and have a sense of urgency, and that’s all well and good for a leader. But what happens when you have internal resistance—everybody who’s the workers of the world— and when they’re pushing back and then they’re not adopting as quickly as you need them to do, how do you manage that properly?
Turner: That is part of the leader’s job. There’s a framework I like to use in my leadership development work, and part of that means that as a leader, not only do you need to have an internal mechanism that allows you to have that fire, but now you need to be able to build a vision where you can engage other people, because it’s not about sometimes even what they hear you saying, it’s what they see you doing. So can you engage other people? And if you can engage other people in a certain way, now they will willingly follow you. They will willingly be motivated. And sometimes it becomes about the environment that you’re fostering. When we foster an environment of fear, of penalties—I’m not a psychology major, but the little bit that I did learn was that when that part of our brain gets hijacked, then we can’t be creative, because we go into fight, flight or freeze mode. So either I’m fighting with my leader, fighting with my team, so therefore I’m not as creative or as productive as I should be, or I’m ready to leave. I’m just going to flee. “Let me get out of this organization, get out of this company,” or “I’ll stay, but I’m frozen in place.” We went through that summer where we had quiet quitters, right, in 2023, and the quiet quitters were, “Okay, I’m not leaving, but I’m going to do anything.”
And then we went from that to last summer, it was the grumpy stares, so they stayed, they worked, but oh, they were just a piece of work to work with. Right? That’s changed this year, right? There’s been thousands and thousands of layoffs being announced to organizations, but that’s the cycle we went through when people could not properly motivate their employees as a leader.
Guarino: You talk about that vision, and I can concur, I agree, I’m 100% with you, but to me a vision is more than just a roadmap. I think a vision also includes things showing a methodology and showing passion for something and giving credibility to the vision. How do you speak to that as far as how do you actually go ahead and do that? Is that just something that comes innately or is it something that you can learn to do to help inspire your team?
Turner: Well, as a part of that inspiration that I mentioned before, you move into being able to have people engaged. They have to see their place in the roadmap. For example, here in Texas, we have one of the most amazing facilities in the world, and that’s the MD Anderson Cancer Center. People come from all over the world. Royalty fly here to get treatment for their cancer situations that you just can’t get anywhere else. They’re a world-class facility. I had the great honor of being on the team as an executive coach, an independent executive coach contractor with them for a couple of years. And one of the things that I saw that impressed me more than anything else, in addition to their great work, was where it starts. We always talk about leadership being at the top. So their CEO is not only a world-class surgeon and a businessman. He’s got obviously his medical credentials, but he also has an MBA. But he’s a true servant leader. I’ve never seen a better example,
And you talk about the phrase sometimes people say, how do you treat people from the janitor to the ceo? That’s who he is. He literally treats people like people, no matter what level you are in an organization. You’ll watch him walk through the hospital and call everybody by name. He stops and acknowledges everyone. But he told a story one day that I’ll never forget, and it’s a story that he lives. He said, “We’re number one in what we do because we have recruited and are able to retain the top surgeons, the top medical professionals to help cure cancer, to help people feel better when we can’t cure it, to buy them a little extra time even, but they can come out of surgery from the top medical professional and still die if they’re put in a dirty room. And that’s why our janitors are just as important as the surgeons.”
Guarino: That’s a great quote.
Turner: Think about that. Now, if I’m a janitor maintenance person, I feel 10 feet tall. I see more in myself than just, hey, I’m cleaning a room. I want to clean that room with more purpose. And you see it as you walk around the facility. It’s very clear, right? And they are just as important to patient care, patient outcome as the people walking around with medical degrees.
Guarino: Wow, that’s inspirational.
Turner: Yes.
Guarino: That’s excellent. Thank you for that. That was wonderful. Let’s go into more of the AI component of our discussion. In your case, you’re talking about the gentleman who’s running the organization. He’s got an MBA, he’s got medical credentials. But if another leader had come into that enterprise, into that hospital, for example, and they have excellent leadership skills, but not necessarily medical skills or medical training, is that person still as qualified to be in that role? And so I guess the real question is, given the endless scope of AI and the accelerated pace that it’s on, the exponential path that it’s on, does a leader today need to be technically fluent to take on a particular role like that? Or just anybody with sufficient leadership skills, is that sufficient enough?
Turner: I believe that your level of AI mastery is contingent on, or dependent rather than contingent, on where you’re working and the purpose of your organization. I believe that everyone, unlike in the early days of IT, where you and I come from. I remember one of the first major projects I got involved in is I was with a cutting-edge company that wanted to put a PC on everybody’s desk, and that included the partners. This was the first time this was happening. The partners never had to use a computer before. This is back in the old days where instead of the executive assistants you have today, every single one of them had a secretary. These days, you have a pool, right? So they had no reason to know how to type. They had no reason to use a computer.
But I was on the cutting edge where we had to teach every single person how to do that, including the senior leaders. This is the first time, but that was seen as optional. Nobody else was doing that. It’s not optional today, but when it comes to AI, you as a leader, absolutely, positively must have AI competency. You don’t have to be an AI master, but you need to have AI competency, you need to have fluency. And then, when it comes to how does it get implemented in your organization, all of that obviously can fall to other people, but you need a basic understanding of that one. CEO recommended Jim VandeHei in his publication Axios, that if you’re not spending 10% of your day, not your week, and as an example I quoted earlier with Google, if you’re not spending 10% of your day doing something with AI to where you’re building that competency, you’re falling behind and you’re doing yourself a disservice. And if you’re not careful, you will become disintermediated by the technology or those who know how to use it.
Guarino: Do you think 10% is a tall order or is that attainable?
Turner: Well, I don’t believe that’s a tall order. As we think about the portion of our day and how much we spend in meetings, and sometimes those meetings are not meetings that are necessary, perhaps that we shouldn’t be in. When we think about how much time we might lose on social media, water cooler conversations, 10% is not a lot of our day for something that will eventually on the flip side save us a lot of that day. How many of these letters, emails, et cetera that we’re sending out could be significantly reduced if we understood proper usage of AI. To that end, you have organizations, I won’t name any, but we see them in the news, that are mandating that their employees do more with AI. One article said, “Listen, as they did all these massive layoffs in the company, we believe that those who we’ve retained are not working enough. So we kept you, but we now expect you to do more with less, and we expect you to be able to do that successfully without it being a strain, because you’re going to use the power of AI.”
Guarino: Given what you’re suggesting on the high ROI, maybe, conversely, 10% is not enough, given that it has such a high and immediate ROI that you’re talking about, with emails and everything else, how much more it can increase our productivity in such a short amount of time.
Turner: Well, the 10% was the minimum suggestion. Certainly if you want to do more and you are in a position to do more, that might be the course of wisdom. But he was saying that the 10% should be our minimal goal for ourselves.
Guarino: So here’s another question for you. When you’re a leader and there’s this disruptive technology such as AI, how do you provide direction to your team and to your company as a whole, when you yourself may not have all the answers, given the velocity of this technology. How do you provide adequate or sufficient leadership and instill trust into the team?
Turner: A friend of mine who’s a partner at a major firm sent me something from one of our—you’re in Chicago, so you’ll know that one of the world-class universities in the world is the University of Chicago, and they are running a program now, I can’t remember what the length was, I want to say it’s 10 months. It’s a program targeted specifically to C-level people to gain AI competency. Now it’s spread out and it’s done in a digestible format so that this unique audience can learn in the comfort of their peers, group from the top professors in the world, what they need to know to be able to understand AI, and as I mentioned, having that competency, that fluency so that they can hold those types of conversations.
There’s others, I’m just using that one as an example. There’s others targeting the C-level group and certainly every other class of classification of employees that are out there.
Guarino: In the particular case of ai, there’s a lot of uncertainty amongst employees. And you alluded to it earlier about potential layoffs and things like that, and a lot of fear perhaps, and for sure a lot of misinformation out there and miscommunication about AI in general. How do you mitigate that and to help not spread more anxiety on a given topic like this as a leader to promote trust and things like that to your team?
Turner: We tell people the truth. Don’t run from AI. Run to it. AI is the biggest disruptor we’ve seen, right? Again, the world you and I came from, when technologies were introduced, it was a six-month run, a one-year run. It changed faster than anything else. But hey, when it automated certain jobs in a factory, for example, you still needed people to maintain it and to work it. It made things better, but it did not have the cost and the whole-scale change that AI is having. You literally don’t need as many people to do it. And it’s not, to use the technical term we use in the server room, kluge.
Guarino: Good word.
Turner: Right? It’s not kluge. It is seamless. If you go to any, I use the example of MD Anderson. Now I haven’t been there, so I don’t know if they’re doing this, but I will say that what we’ve seen in California, they did something with Stanford, if I’m not mistaken, where in the hospital what they have done is made it seamless for the medical doctors to capture the patient sessions instead of them having to walk out the room and then speaking to their dictator or whatever it may be, or have their nurse in there to try to capture notes. The walls are capturing everything via AI and doing all of that for them. And as a coach, I can appreciate the sense of presence right now that medical professional can be fully present with the patient and everything’s being captured for them. That’s just one example of what we’re talking about. It is enhancing the patient and practitioner relationship.
Guarino: So what I’m hearing from you is, and this is not unique to this conversation, is that transparency is really very important, clearly.
Turner: Yes.
Guarino: Right? And do you think, is that alone enough to foster the buy-in from the team, the transparency and the honesty? Is that what you need to get the buy-in legitimately?
Turner: Well, that’s where it starts. Again, we go back to how we opened up the conversation with the examples of Uber, with the examples of Airbnb. Let’s add another one. This company called Netflix. So you could either embrace technology, embrace disruption, or be disrupted. I was having a conversation with a group. I do some coaching on college campus, and sometimes that involves also a little bit of workshops. And I was making a joke about the fact that, hey, on Friday night after work, one of the best things you looked forward to was they call it make it a Blockbuster night. Now, nobody today, if you’re of a certain age, knows what that means. You and I remember walking in and there was this rows and rows of videos, and when a new video came and movie came out, you had to get there in time. You didn’t want it to be missing.
Guarino: Right? Completely true. Right?
Turner: Yeah, this was a big deal. And then you had to get it back within 24 hours, whatever it was. And then this company came out that decided, Hey, let’s do this as a mail-in service with DVDs. Another phrase, some of our audience may not be familiar with, and these would show up in the mail and you would just be so excited, but you had to wait for it to get there. And so one thing led to another (unintelligible) to innovate, to now it just streams. So they completely disrupted the home box office experience to the point that Blockbuster no longer exists. And what they did moved other people to copy that. So now we see streaming services are the de facto standard. Cable companies are threatened because you have YouTube, nobody needs a cable box anymore. You run it directly to your TV. But that concept by watching Netflix, so being transparent with employees is one thing leaders have to do.
If we don’t change, if we don’t change voluntarily, we’ll be forced to change. So we must run to it, not from it. We have a whole litany of organizations that we can look at and see what happens when they try to fight it. We need to adopt it and learn the proper use cases. And again, unlike past technological changes, this one is impacting everything very quickly. They talked about the fact that some jobs just simply won’t exist next year, three years, but really it’s happening now. There’s a big problem with the young people that just came out of school this summer. They can’t find jobs because companies are no longer hiring entry level workers, because AI can do that. So that that’s the true ramifications. And not only is it impacting that level, some organizations have gotten rid of middle management, we don’t need you. We can manage this and do all this through AI. So this just hasn’t been the case before.
Guarino: So here’s a question for you then. So given the pervasiveness of AI and all the functionality that it provides, the roadmap might be fraught with—the road ahead, I should say, it might be fraught with some landmines. It could be potentially. How do you know as a leader, how do you know when to pause, when to pivot? What things do you look for when you’re trying to go forward on a potential path that may in fact be riddled with landmines potentially? How do you go forward with that
Turner: Education. Anytime we want to watch out for landmines on a military battlefield, you need knowledge of what to look for, and you also need tools that help you ascertain where those potential landmines are. But there’s sometimes, and we’ve seen this in the movies, where you can’t rely on a technological device. You’ve got to rely on your training. You’ve got to develop a sixth sense. That’s what leaders have to do. Leaders have to develop that sixth sense to understand, to be able to see, to ascertain. And that’s where this developing, and that’s why I use that phrase capacity comes from. It’s something that we build up and we have and we’re able to utilize. This is a true growth period unlike any other time before.
Guarino: So given the of the capabilities of ai, do the traditional KPIs even still apply anymore? Do they even have a place in this discussion?
Turner: Depends. In some ways it’s a yes and. And in some places it’s a no. Depends on everyone’s organization. But the biggest difference that we’re seeing is that AI helps a person accelerate their performance. It helps people do things they never thought were possible. But the caveat is, for example, if you’re going to write a document, you don’t want to just give the AI to write it. You still need to have a certain set of skills to where you can properly, make sure that the document was written properly in AI and that it just didn’t just go grab something that’s not totally accurate. We saw one major organization get in trouble with that, right? So you still need that sense. You need those skills. So AI is a help. It’s an assistant, but it’s going to get better and better. And that’s been the big thing about generative AI. Unlike just the regular application, the fact that it can grow and get better over time means it will be more accurate, will be more precise.
Guarino: So the perfect follow-up question to that then is what kind of advice can you offer to leaders who feel like AI is moving faster than they are? How do you square that in your head? How do you fasten than they could possibly keep up, because it’s moving so quickly?
Turner: It is moving faster. We are all, again, if you’re not doing a minimal standard every day, you are already behind. And even if you are doing a minimum, you’re behind. So it’s like the old adage of how do you eat an elephant: one bite at a time, decide what you want to do and then look in your own home. Look at the applications you already have of AI. Your washing machine, your refrigerator, your toaster, your car no doubt has some rudimentary level of AI that you’re already using.
Guarino: That’s true.
Turner: Look at what you’re doing in terms of your computer. It doesn’t mean that you’re having to run through some of the nice large language model applications. In some cases, it’s the level of tools you’re using for spell track, the level of tools you’re using for constructing paragraphs. There’s small applications that we can do. Pick one, get really good with it. Then of course, learn those large language models. We’re beyond the age of Google now, where we go in and just do a search. We now have to master the concept of the prompts, become an expert on writing prompts.
Guarino: So it goes back to what you said earlier, you don’t need to be a master. You need to have some level of competency as a leader in the world of AI, for sure. Yes,
Turner: Yes.
Guarino: So first of all, can you believe that I’ve exhausted almost all my questions and we’ve been talking for more than 30 minutes already, how fast it goes.
Turner: Time flies when you’re having fun
Guarino: I’m having so much fun. So I do want to ask you a final question. And I think anybody who’s in this space of management and leading in this new world of disruption with AI, my question to you is this: Beyond this, there will surely be another disruption. I mean, that’s just a natural flow of business. What’s the biggest challenge that you might see coming up in the next decade or so? Or is that too far out given the times? Is that too far out? Is five years a better horizon? But how do you prepare for the next disruption to be best prepared for it when you don’t even see it on the horizon? How do you prepare for the next disruption?
Turner: On the Keep Leading podcast, I interviewed the world’s, the famous Jamaican bobsled, the foundering member of the Jamaican bobsled team. Many of us may know the movie Cool Runnings. So Devin Harris in real life, I asked him something similar in terms of what do you do when you want to? Some people can’t set goals, they can’t envision it, and sometimes you have to see it, to be it. He said that you go as far as your vision can take you. When you get there, the rest of the path will be clearer. And I just thought that was a beautiful way of saying it. And so that’s what I would say to leaders. For many years in my keynote speech, there’s a stat I used from Dell, and it was from 2017, and they said that jobs that going to come online 10 years from now have not been created. And I couldn’t imagine what they meant by that in 2017. Well, now look where we are in 2025. We had no idea. The most worthless degree today is computer science, right? No, you’re laughing, right? Because what? That was the hottest degree to have for two decades,
Guarino: Right, right.
Turner: So can you believe that? It’s unfathomable. So again, that’s why we can’t get complacent. That’s why we must challenge ourselves as leaders. And leaders must challenge your teams to constantly be a continuous learner. As an executive coach, I work with people that sometimes haven’t picked up a book since they left school. I work with people that got comfortable. They had a nice job. They didn’t have to push themselves. That is no longer the case. We must be continuous learners learning something new. And as you learn more, and this is where the power of coaching comes in, you’re working with someone who is guiding you and helping you develop, or you’re on an amazing group of people who you encircle yourself with, they will help you see down the path. If you’re reading the right journals, the right books, the right magazines, you’ll be able to see. We can’t see it on our own, right? Myopia sets in and we become like this.
Our biases set in, and we start to believe that we are good enough, we know enough. We’re not. So that’s the only way you’re going to have an inkling to know what’s coming up and what to be preparing for. The way AI is right now, it’s scary. There’s just no telling where we will be in this time next year, literally. Because look at the language models. All those have been ripped up. I was talking to someone, as I told you, working through the university, we’re talking about these new programs that are coming out from the universities. Everybody’s got an AI degree now, but by the time they get the degree out, it’s already antiquated. Those models aren’t being taught anymore. I’m sorry, they’re not being used anymore. But now this is what you’re going to teach people. I don’t want to say this, I’m getting in trouble with my university friends, but those degrees, except for the person that says, “Hey, I just want to see a piece of paper.” Those are the technical logical industry. We know that that is not current learning. So yeah, it’s changing fast, and it is just something that is, I don’t know if we can, it’s riding the bull, right? Just trying to Hang on.
Guarino: Yeah. Well, I think the universities, what they’re still doing is, while the particular bull might not be around this, want to give you the skills of bull riding, whatever comes down afterwards, you’re better prepared to manage it and then to run with it, I think.
Turner: Oh, no question. I’m just saying that the curriculum, by the time it comes out, because I’m going to take to get everything approved right now, we’ve got this program, but the program is already antiquated.
Guarino: Absolutely.
Turner: By the time it launches.
Guarino: Yeah, no, there’s a lot—
Turner: In a way that did not exist with other programs in the past.
Guarino: No, the velocity is just mind boggling.
Turner: Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. Yeah.
Guarino: It’s really incredible. Alright, Eddie, I want to thank you for your time and your insights. It’s always so great to chat with you on these topics and I’m so glad we had a chance to get this recording done, because I think your insights are so valuable and will be very helpful to anybody who’s in this space of trying to manage an AI project or a team or a company. I think there’s a lot of things they can learn from listening to you speak. I also encourage anybody who’s listening to make sure you visit ask eddieturner.com, and check him out and check out his LinkedIn bio, and I’m sure he can help you out with a lot of your leadership skills and training. So Eddie, thank you very much for joining me. Always great to see you my friend.
Turner: Charlie, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be with you.
Guarino: And everybody listening. Thank you for listening and look forward to hearing us and seeing you at future podcasts on TechTalk SMB. Bye everybody.